Good or Bad fold?

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Displaying #1-15 of 15 total posts
80384 Nibs: 218
Member Since: Jun 27th 2007
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Posted on Jul 25th 2007  -  Subject: Good or Bad fold?
I didnt see this hand, i read about it on the internet, and i was very surprised at what some highly respected players had to say on the matter. The hand went as follows; Blinds 75-150. folds to middle position, guy with 5000 in chips calls. cut off calls, SB folds, BB makes it 400. MP calls, cut off folds. Flop comes A48 rainbow. the BB fires out 600 and gets a call. Turn comes K. BB then fires out 1600 into a pot of 2375. so not really a huge bet. MP then goes into a tank for a few minutes, and says, i love my hand but i think u got it, if i fold will you show me?, The guy in BB says yea sure. So the guy then folds his hand face up and he has 44, for bottom set. Other guy says nice fold and shows him 88. My initial reaction was awesome fold. But some top top players are saying this is a terrible play because there is no way he knew he had a set, so he was just a tight weak player that got lucky from a hunch. I know that in the long run this is always going to be a losing play, because for 44 that is a perfect flop, but i just that when in a hand i dont want to be thinking about whats the winning player over a certain period of time, i want to be thinking whats the winning play on this particular hand only. Saying that though, even though im fairly certain it was the right play regardless of what they say, i dont think i could fold myself, just not good enough. Wondering what you guys thought or if you had ever seen anything like this before? Thanks, Michael.
Few Players recall big pots they have won - strange as it seems - but every player can remember with remarkable accuracy the outstanding tough beats of his career.
63599 Nibs: 4,417
Member Since: Aug 21st 2006
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Posted on Jul 25th 2007
It was a tight fold, but overall the play was weak. We only get the hand history and have no idea what kind of read they had on each other. Don't think I'd fold, if I was in the hand and it played that way.
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29660 Nibs: 23,624
Member Since: Mar 19th 2006
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Posted on Jul 25th 2007
I would definatley have a hard time folding and probably wouldn"t and I have to agree that the play was very weak.
51227 Nibs: 1,850
Member Since: May 29th 2006
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Posted on Jul 25th 2007
It's a good fold because the guy showed him that he was beat. Sure he should have played it stronger on the flop but he found out after the fold that he was drawing dead to a 4. I'm thinking that he put the guy on pocket aces and probably was more of a tight (maybe even weak) player to begin with.
80384 Nibs: 218
Member Since: Jun 27th 2007
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Posted on Jul 25th 2007
Sorry i forgot the mention the guy who held the 88 is a pro and has a wsop bracelet. Alot of people are saying this is a weak play, and there is no doubt that over a period of time this will be a losing play, but when i am sitting at the table, and am thinking of folding a big hand, i dont think whether i will be wrong more times than im right, i think whether i am right on this particular hand, as thats all that matters right?
Few Players recall big pots they have won - strange as it seems - but every player can remember with remarkable accuracy the outstanding tough beats of his career.
51227 Nibs: 1,850
Member Since: May 29th 2006
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Posted on Jul 26th 2007
Yeah you have to think about a particular hand that you're in first and foremost. You might use information from other hands to help you decide in a certain hand what to do. However you still have to use whatever information you have for that hand to determine your actions in it. About that hand you wrote about. Again I agree that the guy could have played his hand better than he did. I'm just saying that after he had the information that he was basically drawing dead, that he knew then that he had made a good fold. They say that poker is a game of information. If the guy who had the dominating set never shows that he was way ahead in the hand, then the other guy gained absolutely nothing at all from the hand. He basically would have made a bad play that he never would know was the right play (even though he still played it wrong).
80384 Nibs: 218
Member Since: Jun 27th 2007
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Posted on Jul 26th 2007
When i first read this hand, i was almost 100% it was a world class fold, however now im starting to lean the other way, Doyle Brunson wrote that in some hands you are just meant to lose all your money, and if you dont, you played your hand wrong. Im starting to think whether or not this applies to the hand in question. Despite all this, i think if Phil hellmuth or any other pro made this fold against an unknown player on espn, it would be labelled as a fantastic fold and a example of the pros ability, similarily if a pro made this fold against another pro, it would be labelled as, well they have played together for years now so they know each other very well. Examples of this, Phil Hellmuth folding AK on a 33AQ board. The way the hand went the only hands possible to beat him were QQ (which i think Phill put him on) AQ but it was highly unlikely as the raise pre flop and both checked the flop, or the two remaining aces. Another example would be Doyle Brunson folding QQ on a rag board to a minimum re raise from Chip Reese. Both of these folds were regarded as spectacular, and i heard no mention of people saying mathematically it was a bad play. Both of these folds turned out to be correct as they were behind in the hand, if you havn't seen them, both are on youtube or pokertube and i would recommend you check them out! Thanks, Michael.
Few Players recall big pots they have won - strange as it seems - but every player can remember with remarkable accuracy the outstanding tough beats of his career.
51227 Nibs: 1,850
Member Since: May 29th 2006
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Posted on Jul 27th 2007
When i first read this hand, i was almost 100% it was a world class fold, however now im starting to lean the other way, Doyle Brunson wrote that in some hands you are just meant to lose all your money, and if you dont, you played your hand wrong. Im starting to think whether or not this applies to the hand in question.. I agree with that right there. That's why I said he could have played his hand much better than he did. Either raising on the flop or turn (even if he went all in). I just think he would have been far worse off if the guy never showed his hand. It's like how they tell you to not show when you make a great play that forces another player to fold. Because when you show them, they know that they made a great laydown. By the way, I'm sorry if I'm going on about this too much. I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything.
80384 Nibs: 218
Member Since: Jun 27th 2007
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Posted on Jul 27th 2007
Not at all iveyleague. I posted this thread in the hope someone would reply and actually consider different strategy or game theory. This forum doesnt seem to get as much traffic as others, but the replies in threads seem much better, not just people who automatically think another person is wrong just because they disagree. When i reply or post it will usually be lengthy and may consider more than one side of whatever it is im talking about. This is because before i post i usually spend a few hours thinking about it. Truth is i work in a boring job that requires next to no concentration, so i just sit thinking about poker strategy and game theory all day LOL. Thanks, Michael.
Few Players recall big pots they have won - strange as it seems - but every player can remember with remarkable accuracy the outstanding tough beats of his career.
51227 Nibs: 1,850
Member Since: May 29th 2006
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Posted on Aug 3rd 2007
Hahaha I like the sound of your job. By the way, I try to think about poker as much as I can when I'm working too.
19176 Nibs: 1,075
Member Since: Feb 6th 2006
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Posted on Sep 2nd 2007
the guy could be a superstitious with small pairs the same as I am, thinking that anytime u got a pair lower than 8's than the possibility of a player of having a bigger pair is good, I v'e saved alot a money on small trips to were i woulda lost to biggr trips just by thinking that. When a BB raises less than 3-4 times the blind preflop the person usually is sittin on a hidden monster like middle pair trying to represent like they got 10-J suited and will usually get a instant call from someone with an ace rag, now tthe BB has an easy way out on the flop if he misses an ace flops. But if he gets that miracle and hit his card plus an ace flops, than he did the right thing making a feeler bet for the ace, the MP called giving the BB reason to think he had an ace so he underbet again on the turn. So I think the MP was on his game and was tuned into what the other people where thinking.
GambitMaster Team Toronto
82431 Nibs: 621
Member Since: Aug 27th 2007
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Posted on Sep 3rd 2007
Well, we have to see all aspects of the play. The player probably had a good reading of his opponent so if he folded and said I think you have it he knew what he was doing. A set is not the best hand we can get, but is a good one and so difficult to let go. It was a good fold, no matter what top players say. He made a good reading of its opponent and didn´t loose more. For me it was a good decision he made.
We have to be crazy to like poker
49888 Nibs: 1,676
Member Since: May 24th 2006
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Posted on Oct 9th 2007
i prob wouldn't have folded
AA
51227 Nibs: 1,850
Member Since: May 29th 2006
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Posted on Oct 16th 2007
I would have gone ALL IN BABY!!! lol
6805 Nibs: 4,552
Member Since: Sep 25th 2005
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Posted on Oct 27th 2007
I dont think I could have folded. Trips is one of those hands that is very difficult to spot, even more so when you have trips yourself! Having said that, the bb makes a min raise pre-flop against two limpers, so I would not put him on a decent pocket pair, and would you minimum raise from bb with ace rag? I would expect more than a minimum raise with Ak AQ etc so his most likely holding is a medium pair. That being so, I think it was a good fold.
Displaying #1-15 of 15 total posts

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